Corey Hess, a Zen-trained bodyworker and teacher of standing meditation, traces what happened when the practice of getting well began to interfere with the possibility of being well. The conversation moves through a month in a dark room at Sōgen-ji monastery in Japan, the difference between energy as substance and energy as contact, the body as a pressure cooker of intensity, the day the striving had to stop, and the second breath that arrived when the first one ran out. Health, in this telling, is not a destination reached through technique. It is the texture of being met by something larger than strategy, available to anyone who can stop trying. About Corey Corey Hess trained at Sōgen-ji, a Rinzai Zen monastery in Japan, where he spent years in intensive seated practice under a roshi whose presence he describes as “every cell moving in one-pointed power.” He teaches a bodywork and Qigong practice shaped by that training: standing meditation, non-directed bodywork, breath as contact with the room. He works with individuals in a private practice context and lives in the United States. His website: https://coreyhessbodytherapy.com/ && Subscribe to Corey’s substack here: https://coreyhess.substack.com/p/notes-on-dissolving-our-assumptions Timestamps 00:00 Welcome and the first question 00:02 The body as a pressure cooker of intensity 00:04 The roshi at Sōgen-ji 00:06 Sitting 18 hours a day in pain 00:08 The left eye locks up 00:09 A month in a dark room 00:11 Dropping all the techniques 00:13 What the techniques were protecting 00:14 The room becomes substantial 00:16 The second breath 00:18 Energy, in two registers 00:22 What energy is not 00:24 The body in direct conversation with the room 00:26 The barrier that never made sense 00:28 Health as being met by something larger 00:30 Faith, blind and otherwise 00:33 Listening with the whole body 00:37 Honesty as meeting the moment 00:41 The breath as a way to merge 00:44 A recommendation to feel rather than read 00:45 What the practice is for 00:47 Where we are right now is where it is --- References Mentioned * Sōgen-ji — A Rinzai Zen monastery in Japan where Corey trained. The full name is Sōgen-ji Sōjiji (総持寺), though the monastery referenced in the conversation is the Sōgen-ji of the lineage of Hakuin Ekaku, in Okayama. The training there is the formative practice behind Corey’s teaching. * Rinzai Zen — One of the two major schools of Japanese Zen Buddhism, the other being Sōtō. The Rinzai tradition emphasizes kōan practice, intensive seated meditation (zazen), and face-to-face interaction with the teacher (the roshi). Founded in China as the Linji school, brought to Japan by Eisai in the twelfth century. The lineage of Hakuin Ekaku (1686–1769) is the most influential Rinzai line in modern Japan. * Zhan Zhuang — Standing meditation, the foundational qigong practice. “Standing like a tree.” The structure of the standing practice is the entry into the cultivation of qi in many Chinese and Japanese somatic traditions. Used in Corey’s practice as a complement to seated zazen and to non-directed bodywork. * Non-directed body movement — A somatic practice in which the practitioner brings attention to the body without imposing a technique or a goal. The body’s own movement becomes the material of the practice. The exercise Corey describes from the first evening in Missoula, twenty-five people in a room, the body releasing in its own direction, is the entry point. * Rolfing — A form of structural integration and deep tissue bodywork developed by Ida Rolf in the twentieth century. Corey worked with a Rolfer during the period between the Missoula episode and the move to Japan. The structural bodywork was useful to him, but the limitation he names is the one all structural work eventually arrives at: the body remembers the strategy of control, and the strategy is the thing that has to change. * Lower dantian / tanden — In Chinese and Japanese somatic traditions, the center of gravity about three finger-widths below the navel. The seat of qi cultivation in qigong and the focus of breath practice in Zen. In the conversation, Corey names the dantian as a thing you can develop physically, and also as something that is “totally way out there,” a paradox of a center that is also a horizon. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.autoimmunetheory.com

Manda Scott traces the self as a set of relations: to body, to earth, to the wider web of life. The conversation moves through the neurophysiology of story, Nora Bateson’s wide-boundary thinking, Donella Meadows’s hierarchy of leverage points, and the two tasks Manda names as the core of shamanic work: give thanks, ask for help. Autoimmunity emerges here as a liminal state, a threshold where the body opens toward a different relationship to the entire living world. She trained as a veterinary surgeon in Glasgow, specialized in equine neonatal intensive care, and taught at the universities of Cambridge and Dublin. Forty years of shamanic practice, study with indigenous teachers in the UK and US, training in acupuncture and homeopathy, and an MA in Regenerative Economics from Schumacher College inform a body of work that moves across disciplines without asking permission. Born in Scotland at 318ppm CO2, Manda Scott trained as a veterinary surgeon, but is now an award-winning novelist, host of the Accidental Gods podcast and co-creator of the Thrutopia Masterclass. Best known for the Boudica: Dreaming series, her latest novel, Any Human Power, is a mytho-political Thrutopian thriller that explores the potential for a future we'd be proud to leave as our legacy. She believes that the way forward now is for everyone to craft open-hearted connections with all parts of ourselves, each other and the Web of Life. She lives with her partner, Faith, in the Shropshire Marches. Episode Timings [00:00] — Introduction and Manda’s path [00:09] — Svasta: health as self-knowledge [00:12] — Self-tolerance and the autoimmune narrative [00:16] — Thrutopian narratives and the boundaries of the human [00:18] — Nora Bateson, Donella Meadows, and the guide’s message [00:21] — Where do you end and begin? [00:24] — The neurophysiology of story [00:26] — Transference, suggestibility, and three medical stories for the same blood [00:29] — Vanessa Andreotti and the core wounding of separability [00:31] — Internal civil war and its alternatives [00:35] — N.K. Jemisin’s Broken Earth [00:37] — Thomas Hübl: trauma as frozen time [00:39] — Conflict as generative edge [00:44] — Autoimmunity as fulcrum [00:45] — The two tasks [00:47] — Beverly Lanzetta’s prayers [00:49] — Teachings from the hill [00:52] — Mantra and inner resonance [00:54] — Closing References Mentioned - Nora Bateson — wide-boundary and narrow-boundary thinking; founder of the International Bateson Institute; author of Small Arcs of Larger Circles (2016) and Combining (2023). Her concept of “warm data” insists that relational information — the interdependencies between contexts — is what narrow-boundary analysis systematically excludes. https://norabateson.wordpress.com/about/ - Donella Meadows — “Leverage Points: Places to Intervene in a System” (1997, Whole Earth), expanded in Thinking in Systems: A Primer (2008). The 12 leverage points ascend from parameters and buffers through rules and goals to paradigms, with the highest leverage being the capacity to transcend all paradigms. donellameadows.org - Vanessa Andreotti — Brazil-born decolonial scholar, author of Hospicing Modernity (2021). Her work on the belief in separability as the core wounding of Western modernity draws on teachings from an indigenous grandfather. decolonialfutures.net - Richard C. Schwartz — founder of Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy. The “internal civil war” framing appears throughout his work on parts and the Self. ifs-institute.com - Francis Weller — psychotherapist and author of The Wild Edge of Sorrow: Rituals of Renewal and the Sacred Work of Grief (2015). His distinction between trauma culture and initiation culture, and the image of the newborn expecting forty adoring gazes, draws on decades of soul-centered psychotherapy. francisweller.net - Thomas Hübl — contemplative teacher and author of Healing Collective Trauma (2020). His reframing of trauma as “a moment frozen in time” and the thawing process that restores flow and relationality. thomashuebl.com - N.K. Jemisin — The Broken Earth trilogy (The Fifth Season, The Obelisk Gate, The Stone Sky, 2015–2017). Three consecutive Hugo Awards. A far-future Earth where a sentient planet retaliates against civilisational extraction, and orogenes — people who can manipulate geological forces — are feared, enslaved, and used as living tools. nkjemisin.com - Beverly Lanzetta — interfaith theologian and contemplative, author of Path of the Heart: A Spiritual Guide to Divine Union (1985, expanded 2014). The prayer Laure quotes is from this text. Described as “a rare combination of mature spiritual wisdom and poetic quality that transcends confessional lines.” beverlylanzetta.net Classical Frameworks Referenced (by Laure) - Svasta (Sanskrit: स्वस्थ) — the Ayurvedic definition of health: being established in oneself. Not the absence of disease but the presence of self-knowledge. - Rakta Pitta (Sanskrit: रक्त पित्त) — a condition in which the metabolic fire (pitta) vitiates the blood (rakta), causing it to become too hot, too toxic, and to leak from its channels. The Ayurvedic frame for what allopathic medicine calls immune thrombocytopenia. - Qi deficiency with heat in the blood — the Chinese medicine frame for ITP-pattern bleeding. A very different story than “the body attacking its own cells.” Works by Manda Scott - Accidental Gods — podcast exploring how humanity navigates the meta-crisis toward a regenerative future. 200+ episodes. accidentalgods.life - Any Human Power (2024) — a Thrutopian mytho-political thriller, her most recent novel. mandascott.co.uk - Boudica: Dreaming series — four historical novels (Dreaming the Eagle, Dreaming the Bull, Dreaming the Hound, Dreaming the Serpent Spear, 2003–2006) exploring pre-Roman Britain through a shamanic lens. - Dreaming Awake — contemporary shamanic practitioner training, co-run with senior apprentice Louise Mayor. dreamingawake.co.uk - Thrutopia Masterclass — teaching writers to craft narratives that map pathways beyond dystopia and utopia into viable futures. thrutopia.life The host: Laure Marin is an Ayurvedic consultant, bodywork practitioner, and writer based between Tiohtià:ke/Montréal and Kerala. I have lived with immune thrombocytopenia for over twenty-five years. Subscribe to the newsletter for long-form essays and episode companions: autoimmunetheory.com Theme music: « Tremblement » de Michaël Boudreau, from the album Terre. To listen: https://michaelboudreau.bandcamp.com/album/terre Link Tree: https://linktr.ee/michaelboudreau This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.autoimmunetheory.com

Ojas Is Not the Immune System When ojas is reduced to immunity, every dimension that matters is lost. Vaidya Dr. P. Rammanohar explains why Ayurveda's framework makes visible what Western immunology structurally cannot see, how a randomized controlled trial was designed around Ayurvedic clinical reasoning rather than against it, and why the body in autoimmune distress is better understood as angry than as attacking itself. The conversation ends with dharma as ecological repair, and the claim that sustainable development goals are dharmic goals by another name. Guest: Vaidya Dr. P. Rammanohar, Research Director at ĀCĀRA (Amrita Centre for Advanced Research in Ayurveda), Amritapuri, Kerala, India. References mentioned:— Rammanohar, P. "Research for Understanding as Opposed to Evaluating Ayurveda." Ancient Science of Life 34, no. 2 (2014): 61–63. DOI: 10.4103/0257-7941.153456— Furst, D.E., Venkatraman, M.M., Ram Manohar, P., et al. "Double-Blind, Randomized, Controlled, Pilot Study Comparing Classic Ayurvedic Medicine, Methotrexate, and Their Combination in Rheumatoid Arthritis." Journal of Clinical Rheumatology 17, no. 4 (2011): 185–192. PubMed: 21617554— Furst, D.E., Venkatraman, M.M., Ram Manohar, P., et al. "Well Controlled, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Trials of Classical Ayurvedic Treatment Are Possible in Rheumatoid Arthritis." Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases 70, no. 2 (2011): 392. ard.bmj.com— Caraka Samhita, Janapadodhwamsa passage (Vimāna Sthāna 3)— Caraka Samhita, Vatarakta passage: "Kṛpābhyāsaiva krodham vātaraktam niyacchati"— Etuaptmumk (Two-Eyed Seeing): Mi'kmaq principle of layered knowing, originating from Elders Albert and Murdena Marshall and Dr. Cheryl Bartlett at Cape Breton University. Referenced in WHO-affiliated integrative health frameworks. Wikipedia; Tremblay & Martin, "Etuaptmumk/Two-Eyed Seeing," in Global Handbook of Health Promotion Research, Vol. 3 (Springer, 2023). Texts by Rammanohar:— "Research for Understanding as Opposed to Evaluating Ayurveda", Ancient Science of Life 34(2), 2014— "The Translational Framework of Ayurveda as a Knowledge System", Ancient Science of Life 35(4), 2016— "Backing Up Ayurveda with Good Science: The Modus Operandi", Ancient Science of Life 34(3), 2015 The host:Laure Marin is an Ayurvedic consultant, bodywork practitioner, and writer based between Tiohtià:ke/Montréal and Kerala. autoimmunetheory.com Subscribe to the newsletter for long-form essays and episode companions: autoimmunetheory.com Theme music: « Tremblement » by Michaël Boudreau, from the album Terre. To listen to the track, here: https://michaelboudreau.bandcamp.com/album/terre Michaël’s link tree: https://linktr.ee/michaelboudreau This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.autoimmunetheory.com